Could someone please confirm that the actual start date has to be on the apprenticeship agreement and we can’t put an estimated start date and then send them an appendix confirming the actual start date.
ThanksJune 16, 2017 at 11:37 am #169509
The apprenticeship agreement is a contract of employment meeting the ordinary requirements for all employees, plus “an apprenticeship agreement must include a statement of the skill, trade or occupation for which the apprentice is being trained under the apprenticeship framework.”
Basically, they don’t need to have started their course to have an Apprenticeship Agreement in place, and really it should be done beforehand anyway. The upshot of that quoted section of the legislation is that the agreement doesn’t need to specify the course start date at all. If you have paperwork that includes it, I would leave it blank until you know what it will be – it’s not legally required to be there.
Hope that helps,
CrisJune 19, 2017 at 11:57 am #170273
Brilliant, thank you for this – very helpful!June 19, 2017 at 12:46 pm #170287
Just to expand on the above, the agreement also has to state “that it is governed by the law of England and Wales” and “that it is entered into in connection with a qualifying apprenticeship framework”. It doesn’t seem that you need to say which framework, which would make sense if they assume you may not know when they begin work.
CrisJune 19, 2017 at 1:12 pm #170302
I received a reply back from the apprenticeship helpdesk and they have confirmed that the actual start date does need to be on the apprenticeship agreement and signed by both the learner and the employer, you do also need to confirm the framework.
Hope this helps you Cris.June 20, 2017 at 8:34 am #170523
For the sake of an extra box it’s not really worth changing practices, but I did check after I posted before and the funding rules themselves only say the following:
B12. There must be evidence that an apprentice has an apprenticeship agreement at the start and throughout their apprenticeship, between the employer and apprentice as defined in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (unless the apprenticeship framework is covered by the alternative completion conditions).
B13. The apprenticeship agreement can be a written statement of particulars under the Employment Rights Act 1996. Alternatively, it can be a contract of employment or a letter of engagement, where the employer’s duty under the 1996 Act is treated as met.
Again, no mention of date, so there is no such requirement, whatever they say. They probably advised you that way because it would seem intuitive that the start date would be required. In fact, the agreement specifies that they will employ the apprentice until the end, which is variable regardless, so their start date is all but meaningless.
I’m big on questioning received wisdom, if you couldn’t tell!
CrisJune 20, 2017 at 9:24 am #170537
Apprenticeship Agreements Apprentices must sign an Apprenticeship Agreement with their employer before the apprenticeship begins. This is a contract stipulating the framework being followed and the skill, trade or occupation the apprentices is working in. Without this agreement, an apprenticeship completion certificate cannot be issued.
The date on the Apprenticeship Agreement should be on or before the training start date with the Provider (ILR Actual Start date).
HTHJune 20, 2017 at 11:08 am #170557
That’s the way I see it. To go further still though, given that the Agreement is an annex to the contract of employment, I’ve interpreted that to mean that the only start date required would be the employment start date, which is, I believe, one of the particulars stipulated by the Employment Rights Act 1996.
When it comes to the App. Agreement we’re going by rules A92.5:
[The learner file for an apprentice must also contain:] confirmation that an apprenticeship agreement is in place or confirmation that the employer has been told about their legal duty for an apprenticeship agreement
and 211.11 of the May onwards performance management rules:
A copy of the written apprenticeship agreement or confirmation that the employer has been told about their legal duty for an apprenticeship agreement.
So they confirm on the Enrolment Form that they are aware of their duty and we leave it at that.
I’m less sure about rule 37.2:
You must keep a copy of any revisions to the apprenticeship agreement resulting from a change in circumstance in the evidence pack.
Given that it’s the employer’s business what’s included and whether they actually meet their requirements, as confirmed by the other rules above, I assume you’re to keep evidence of any changes to the terms of employment that you’re made aware of, since the employer might not necessarily think to inform you.
CrisJune 20, 2017 at 11:55 am #170576
All employer should be aware of the requirements via the ‘Apprenticeship funding: rules and guidance for employers May 2017 to March 2018’ so they do have an obligation to inform you of any revisions to the Apprenticeship Agreement and should provide you with the evidence where required.
HTHJune 20, 2017 at 12:16 pm #170613
Ah, good point.
Thanks, Martin – always helps to get your opinion!
CrisJune 20, 2017 at 2:28 pm #170690
Very interested to read “The date on the Apprenticeship Agreement should be on or before the training start date with the Provider (ILR Actual Start date)”. Every audit that we have had (to produce the audit certificate for SFA) has insisted that the start and end dates on the apprenticeship agreement MUST agree with the training start and end dates on the ILR and have marked it as an issue when the employment start and end dates are on the apprenticeship agreement. Is this documented anywhere so that we can share this with auditors and overcome the problem where the employer does not want to sign the agreement with the learning start date on it?June 21, 2017 at 9:37 am #170905
The Apprenticeship Agreement referred to by myself and Cris Hale is that defined in the funding rules B12 as required by Act of Parliament: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/844/made
This is not the same as the Training Agreement between the Provider, Employer and Learner which many mistakenly refer to as an ‘Apprenticeship Agreement’.
HTHJune 21, 2017 at 12:57 pm #170956
Hi Martin – yes this is the Apprenticeship Agreement that I am referring to – our external auditors (2 different companies) have both said that it must have the same dates as the Learning Agreement and the ILP (which use the learning start date). Your comment above seems to contradict that?June 21, 2017 at 2:16 pm #170986
So does the Act of Parliament!, so much for AuditorsJune 21, 2017 at 2:26 pm #170988
Perhaps they only mean to say that if you choose to include the course start and end dates on the document then they must reflect the Learning Agreement – you would expect that to be the case, after all.
CrisJune 22, 2017 at 8:59 am #171193
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