Does anyone have experience where an employer incorrectly stopped there DAS cohort for an apprentice?
And were you able to get the employer to ‘change’ the stop date?
Our issue is an apprentice completed there apprenticeship but a month after their planned end date.
The employer for some reason thought they had to stop the account on their planned end date as the learner had finished… this has now resulted in a loss of funding and is affected our R14 return.
We are trying to talk to the employer about this.October 18, 2018 at 11:16 am #298248
yes a stop date can be changed by an employer. A stop cannot be removed though as far as I know.
ChrisOctober 18, 2018 at 11:19 am #298250
The employer can amend the stop date but only to an earlier date than the one they have entered. If the date needs to be moved to a later date they will need to contact the manage apprentices helpdesk.
DarrenOctober 18, 2018 at 11:21 am #298254
Hi Darren, Chris
That was what I was afraid of. Thanks for responding so quickly.
The stress of all of this lol
Thanks both 🙂
October 18, 2018 at 11:22 am #298256
- This reply was modified 3 months ago by Taylor26.
We have a few employers who have STOPPED their apprentices when they have completed their apprenticeship which I’m now realising is the wrong thing to do. I have been informed that the action of putting an END DATE in the ILR will be shown in the DAS and the employer will be informed of a change that they need to confirm.
I’m assuming that the employers who have STOPPED their apprentices will need to contact the helpdesk??
KateNovember 7, 2018 at 11:05 am #305262
Oh yes! We’ve had several employers stop their DAS when they shouldn’t have. It’s a complete pain, as you have to get them to go and alter that one to have the same start and end dates, then start a new from from the beginning. I need to create a DAS fact sheet for employers. Some barely know what it is, some are over eager.November 12, 2018 at 5:45 pm #306545
Hi Ruth, so you’re saying they have to start a brand new one from the start once they have amended the old one? What does this do to the payments that have already been processed through the system?
KateNovember 13, 2018 at 8:31 am #306665
That’s what we’ve been told to do in the past by the Manage Apprenticeships helpdesk. Since even they can’t reinstate a stopped record, there’s nothing else we can do. I guess it would put all the money back in for the previous record, but them immediately take it back out for the new one, as it would be backdated. Shouldn’t make any difference to you as a provider, as long as they do both things at the same time.November 13, 2018 at 10:40 am #306708
Ruth, we have quite a lot where the employer has stopped them in the same month that they have completed on the ILR, I’m guessing we can leave these rather than trying to amend??November 14, 2018 at 2:51 pm #307187
Just keep an eye on whether you get your completion payment through. If you do, then it probably isn’t a problem. I’d be really interested to know what you find out regarding that. I’ve always been worried it would stop the completion payment.November 14, 2018 at 3:52 pm #307223
We’ve got an apprentice who’s stopped on the Apprenticeship Service that a completion payment is due for. I will let you know what the ESFA say about this as I wouldn’t be able to reinstate the apprentice because said apprentice started in the last academic year. What happened was the completion payment went out for R14 but went back in after R03 because the learner wasn’t on the ILR as the learner finished in academic year 18/19.
Speaking from an Employer-Provider perspective it’s certainly a system that favours employers rather training provider as theoretically an apprentice’s record could be stopped by the employer as soon as the apprentice finishes effectively stopping any monies due to the provider. This is turn gives the provider a massive headache in trying to collect the outstanding monies due to no fault of their own. The best solution would be for either the Apprenticeship Service/ESFA to issue the outstanding payment manually but whether such a solution could be implemented is another matter…November 20, 2018 at 10:03 am #308975
How do learners sit in the DAS if they have been withdrawn or suspended, do they stay as “LIVE? We have some learners who have been withdrawn on the ILR in 1718 but are still sitting as “LIVE”. If the ILR dates automatically end them on the DAS, should they still be “LIVE”??November 21, 2018 at 10:29 am #309415
ILR dates don’t affect the visible learner status on the DAS when it comes to achievement/completion (i.e. they won’t show as stopped on the DAS if they’re marked as ended/achieved on the ILR). Employers don’t need to stop apprentices on the DAS when they achieve. They can do, to keep their DAS ‘tidy’, but it doesn’t affect funding.November 21, 2018 at 10:59 am #309423
Has anyone received advise from the helpdesk either ESFA or DAS.
I am getting mixed information from both parties.
The DAS have said if we pause a learner when on a BIL rather than stop then as soon as the learner returns, say they were on a BIL for 3 months then wed get the back payment of 3 months payments in one go well this wouldnt work as I have been told( as havent seen the employer side) that they cant add a date for return so then we would be out of sink with Our MIS and DAS along with payment records.
We now a an employer who stopped 2 learners a month early and under a yr and day.
Now i have been advised to set up a new cohort and adjust money values on the DAS but none of this makes sense.
Has anyone got any feedback or sensible responses.
ThanksDecember 3, 2018 at 12:50 pm #313899
I can confirm this, as we’re a levy payer and one of our apprentices had a break and then returned, so I can see our levy payments as an employer, and our income as the provider.
There were no payments taken from our DAS, or received in our Apps Monthly Payment Report during the break. The payments just started again in the month in which the apprentice returned. We didn’t stop the DAS cohort. The mismatched start and end dates between the DAS and the new enrolment in the ILR don’t cause a problem. The new monthly payments equal the full price, minus what we had claimed for the first part, divided by the months duration of the new enrolment.December 3, 2018 at 1:24 pm #313912
So did the payments just start back up as the normal monthly installments and not backdated once she was reinstated.
If you don’t change the dates on DAS it won’t sink with your ILR data so will this come up in Audit?
As some of our learners have been stopped now instead of paused.
Sorry im new to this as ive taken it over and not too sure whether the ESFA or DAS are correct with the systems as they dont marry.
ThanksDecember 3, 2018 at 1:52 pm #313916
Correct, there were definitely no backdated payments. It wouldn’t make sense to have payments for months where we did no delivery. It doesn’t actually matter if your ILR and DAS dates don’t sync. There would be no issue at audit, as you could evidence that the dates in the DAS matched the original enrolment. The money is driven by the ILR data, not the DAS data. The exception being where the employer stops their DAS records.
The Apprenticeship Funding rules back this up;
Effect on funding
Funding from an employer’s apprenticeship service account or government-employer co-investment stops until the apprentice resumes their apprenticeship. Funding is capped across both periods of learning so that the overall earnings do not exceed the funding band maximum. Funding will recommence based on the new start date in the ILR. All additional
payments stop until the apprentice resumes their apprenticeship. Any additional payments already made are retained.
I’m really not sure what you should do now that your employers have stopped their DAS records. If they create new ones, what price would they enter? With a restart after a break, you’re meant to record the full original price on the restarted programme aim in the ILR. So, if they record a different price in their DAS now, that will error. They’ll have to record the full price with a new start date, and I have no idea what that will do to the payments. I think it may get capped anyway, but it will look odd, and I believe it might show that the employer owes you a contribution above the band maximum, which stops you getting your completion payment.
My inclination would be to get them to alter the stopped records, and date them as if they never started. Then, get them to go back and create new DAS records that cover the original planned dates. Set up the new ones precisely how the original ones were set up.
I may be wrong, but I can’t think of an alternative.
Don’t apologise! Some of us have been doing this for years, and we’re still not clear on it.December 3, 2018 at 3:35 pm #314031
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